Comments on: Vision 2019’s challenge to the church http://www.ministrymatters.ca/settingsail/vision-2019%e2%80%99s-challenge-to-the-church/ Inspiration for Canadian Anglican leaders Wed, 25 Jan 2012 19:09:54 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Fr. Shane Bengry http://www.ministrymatters.ca/settingsail/vision-2019%e2%80%99s-challenge-to-the-church/comment-page-1/#comment-259 Fr. Shane Bengry Fri, 07 May 2010 15:35:15 +0000 http://www.ministrymatters.ca/?p=1001#comment-259 I like your observations. I like your observations.

]]> By: Rod http://www.ministrymatters.ca/settingsail/vision-2019%e2%80%99s-challenge-to-the-church/comment-page-1/#comment-236 Rod Wed, 05 May 2010 01:04:26 +0000 http://www.ministrymatters.ca/?p=1001#comment-236 Hi. I submitted a reply to this posting and it has not appeared. To repeat, I would be interested to know more about the opinion expressed here. Specifically, the claim that there is a basis for deciding who is deemed to practice the gospel better than others? Hi. I submitted a reply to this posting and it has not appeared. To repeat, I would be interested to know more about the opinion expressed here. Specifically, the claim that there is a basis for deciding who is deemed to practice the gospel better than others?

]]> By: brian http://www.ministrymatters.ca/settingsail/vision-2019%e2%80%99s-challenge-to-the-church/comment-page-1/#comment-188 brian Fri, 16 Apr 2010 17:46:49 +0000 http://www.ministrymatters.ca/?p=1001#comment-188 God's grace is given to sinners, and upon the exercise of faith, which leads to redemption and salvation, the sinful are then sanctified and viewed as righteous throught the righteousness of Jesus Christ. There is no holiness for anyone to return to, we all stand guilty before God of sin until we seek redemption in Christ, by his Holy Spirit. Christ is building a community, it includes only those people who put their faith in him. I think an argument could be made for the unborn and infants, but Jesus teaching in Scripture is that some people become his disciples, and some do not. Some are saved, some are lost. Some recieve eternal life, some do not. Some are not condemned, the rest are already condemned. {John 3:18] The Anglican Church needs to ensure that the content of its teaching is that, God saves sinners. God's grace is given to sinners, and upon the exercise of faith, which leads to redemption and salvation, the sinful are then sanctified and viewed as righteous throught the righteousness of Jesus Christ.

There is no holiness for anyone to return to, we all stand guilty before God of sin until we seek redemption in Christ, by his Holy Spirit.

Christ is building a community, it includes only those people who put their faith in him. I think an argument could be made for the unborn and infants, but Jesus teaching in Scripture is that some people become his disciples, and some do not. Some are saved, some are lost. Some recieve eternal life, some do not. Some are not condemned, the rest are already condemned. {John 3:18]

The Anglican Church needs to ensure that the content of its teaching is that, God saves sinners.

]]> By: Dale Sparkes http://www.ministrymatters.ca/settingsail/vision-2019%e2%80%99s-challenge-to-the-church/comment-page-1/#comment-178 Dale Sparkes Tue, 13 Apr 2010 23:30:23 +0000 http://www.ministrymatters.ca/?p=1001#comment-178 It seems that Anglicanism in Canada is in decline because: 1) it is percieved as irrelevent by society in general and by many of its hereditary members off-spring in particular; 2) it is percieved by some as supporting gay/lesbian integration and by others as indicisive on the issue. Until such time as the present members of the Canadian Church can clearly enunciate their faith and its implications in language and form relative to our age and in spiritual vision that is in cohesion with a modern worldview the Church will continue to decline. The humane and ecological issues of the world are not addressable by a church whose members predominantly have as their central focus a remote afterlife and a remote god. The Church must clarify the issues, state comprehensively the breadth and extent in which faith is held in Canadian Anglicanism. Where fundamentalists are straight to the (misguided?) point, Anglicanism appears to be circuously nowhere. Is it time for a new equivalent to the 39 Articles? The commendable Marks and priorities will wither without the clarification to allow Anglican Christianity to move beyond duty or irrelevence to be a vocation. It seems that Anglicanism in Canada is in decline because: 1) it is percieved as irrelevent by society in general and by many of its hereditary members off-spring in particular; 2) it is percieved by some as supporting gay/lesbian integration and by others as indicisive on the issue. Until such time as the present members of the Canadian Church can clearly enunciate their faith and its implications in language and form relative to our age and in spiritual vision that is in cohesion with a modern worldview the Church will continue to decline. The humane and ecological issues of the world are not addressable by a church whose members predominantly have as their central focus a remote afterlife and a remote god. The Church must clarify the issues, state comprehensively the breadth and extent in which faith is held in Canadian Anglicanism. Where fundamentalists are straight to the (misguided?) point, Anglicanism appears to be circuously nowhere. Is it time for a new equivalent to the 39 Articles? The commendable Marks and priorities will wither without the clarification to allow Anglican Christianity to move beyond duty or irrelevence to be a vocation.

]]> By: Cynthia http://www.ministrymatters.ca/settingsail/vision-2019%e2%80%99s-challenge-to-the-church/comment-page-1/#comment-177 Cynthia Sun, 11 Apr 2010 16:37:26 +0000 http://www.ministrymatters.ca/?p=1001#comment-177 Oh, but it is on that very foundation laid by Jesus and the early apostles, both men and women that the Church is building a more inclusive community. It may have taken us nearly two thousand years to overcome the legacy of misogyny and homophobia that a patriarchal church managed to preserve in spite of Jesus' teaching, but it is by God's grace that we have been called back to wholeness and holiness. Oh, but it is on that very foundation laid by Jesus and the early apostles, both men and women that the Church is building a more inclusive community. It may have taken us nearly two thousand years to overcome the legacy of misogyny and homophobia that a patriarchal church managed to preserve in spite of Jesus' teaching, but it is by God's grace that we have been called back to wholeness and holiness.

]]> By: Brian http://www.ministrymatters.ca/settingsail/vision-2019%e2%80%99s-challenge-to-the-church/comment-page-1/#comment-175 Brian Fri, 09 Apr 2010 04:05:02 +0000 http://www.ministrymatters.ca/?p=1001#comment-175 And what will the church look like when it throws over its own foundations? Will Jesus Christ recognize it as his own love? as his bride which loves to submit to her Lord and Master? Jesus is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow, and the Holy Spirit's role is to bring glory to Jesus. John 16:14 That would mean celebrating and upholding with joy the standards and truths that were promoted by Christ himself, and by those men who wrote our commonly accepted Scriptures. It will not be God's grace that invites us to move beyond ideas promulgated in His Word. It will be his grace and forbearance that calls us back to himself, to his holiness, where we learn to fear his wrath at our willful wrongdoing and misguided decisions. And what will the church look like when it throws over its own foundations? Will Jesus Christ recognize it as his own love? as his bride which loves to submit to her Lord and Master? Jesus is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow, and the Holy Spirit's role is to bring glory to Jesus. John 16:14 That would mean celebrating and upholding with joy the standards and truths that were promoted by Christ himself, and by those men who wrote our commonly accepted Scriptures.

It will not be God's grace that invites us to move beyond ideas promulgated in His Word. It will be his grace and forbearance that calls us back to himself, to his holiness, where we learn to fear his wrath at our willful wrongdoing and misguided decisions.

]]> By: Cynthia http://www.ministrymatters.ca/settingsail/vision-2019%e2%80%99s-challenge-to-the-church/comment-page-1/#comment-174 Cynthia Wed, 07 Apr 2010 15:21:03 +0000 http://www.ministrymatters.ca/?p=1001#comment-174 Proof that Jesus' promise to send the Holy Spirit has been fulfilled (John 14:25, 15:26, 16:13) and is indeed guiding the Anglican Church of Canada is the fact that we have moved way beyond most of these 'ideas' and by God's grace will eventually move beyond all of them. Proof that Jesus' promise to send the Holy Spirit has been fulfilled (John 14:25, 15:26, 16:13) and is indeed guiding the Anglican Church of Canada is the fact that we have moved way beyond most of these 'ideas' and by God's grace will eventually move beyond all of them.

]]> By: Brian http://www.ministrymatters.ca/settingsail/vision-2019%e2%80%99s-challenge-to-the-church/comment-page-1/#comment-173 Brian Tue, 06 Apr 2010 20:52:24 +0000 http://www.ministrymatters.ca/?p=1001#comment-173 Ok, been looking at it a bit... So, a whole lot of people said a whole lot of different things. The very nature of counting comments makes the report an exercise in catagorizing and classifying. The report doesn't address value, or thoughtfulness, or quality of argument, or truth. In the report, it seems that replies to submissions online were ignored. Many people made comments on the entries submitted. Those replies would actually serve well if they were looked at and included since the people who commented invested more time and thought into joining the conversation. They were more passionate. More thoughtful. At any rate, I find it interesting that the conclusion is really no conclusion at all. We have opportunities and tensions! We have mixed metaphors- we'll move ahead on our solid foundation. And we'll use concrete proposals to reflect back to everyone. Analyst Marlene says "The submissions encompassed a broad range of perspectives, confirming that the Anglican Church is truly a diverse organization. Dealing with diversity is never as easy as dealing with homogeneity. In the past, the Anglican Church in Canada was a fairly homogeneous organization and Canada was a fairly homogeneous country. This is no longer the case." This is a failure of leadership - any organization has guiding principles and it is the job of the leaders to maintain a common vision. That differing people attend the Anglican Church is not at issue. Everyone has always been welcome to attend. That people within the organization may hold differing views on theology is significantly problematic. This is where truth comes into the mix, and sadly the report makes no attempt to address whther some clusters are right or wrong, just which ones were more popular. Ok, been looking at it a bit…

So, a whole lot of people said a whole lot of different things.
The very nature of counting comments makes the report an exercise in catagorizing and classifying. The report doesn't address value, or thoughtfulness, or quality of argument, or truth.

In the report, it seems that replies to submissions online were ignored. Many people made comments on the entries submitted. Those replies would actually serve well if they were looked at and included since the people who commented invested more time and thought into joining the conversation. They were more passionate. More thoughtful.

At any rate, I find it interesting that the conclusion is really no conclusion at all. We have opportunities and tensions! We have mixed metaphors- we'll move ahead on our solid foundation. And we'll use concrete proposals to reflect back to everyone.

Analyst Marlene says
"The submissions encompassed a broad range of perspectives, confirming that the Anglican Church is truly a diverse organization. Dealing with diversity is never as easy as dealing with homogeneity. In the past, the Anglican Church in Canada was a fairly homogeneous organization and Canada was a fairly homogeneous country. This is no longer the case."

This is a failure of leadership – any organization has guiding principles and it is the job of the leaders to maintain a common vision. That differing people attend the Anglican Church is not at issue. Everyone has always been welcome to attend. That people within the organization may hold differing views on theology is significantly problematic.

This is where truth comes into the mix, and sadly the report makes no attempt to address whther some clusters are right or wrong, just which ones were more popular.

]]> By: brian http://www.ministrymatters.ca/settingsail/vision-2019%e2%80%99s-challenge-to-the-church/comment-page-1/#comment-172 brian Tue, 06 Apr 2010 20:12:18 +0000 http://www.ministrymatters.ca/?p=1001#comment-172 Thanks - looking through it... Thanks – looking through it…

]]> By: Andrew http://www.ministrymatters.ca/settingsail/vision-2019%e2%80%99s-challenge-to-the-church/comment-page-1/#comment-171 Andrew Mon, 05 Apr 2010 18:41:09 +0000 http://www.ministrymatters.ca/?p=1001#comment-171 It can be found here: <a href="http://www.anglican.ca/v2019/report/MMA-vision-2019.pdf" target="_blank">http://www.anglican.ca/v2019/report/MMA-vision-20...</a> It's interesting to see how they compiled the responses; sadly, though, they miss the point entirely in the analysis. It essentially concludes that anyone who did not wish to entirely discard traditional beliefs or worship is a closed-minded bigot who simply wishes to return to the 1950s. I wasn't alive then, but I'm aware that the present difficulties have their origins in and long before the 1950s, and certainly do not wish to simply return to any particular period. On the other hand, I strongly oppose discarding all accumulated tradition and reason in favour of the trends of the last decade or so, as the current leadership of the Anglican Church seems to be advocating. It can be found here:

http://www.anglican.ca/v2019/report/MMA-vision-20…

It's interesting to see how they compiled the responses; sadly, though, they miss the point entirely in the analysis. It essentially concludes that anyone who did not wish to entirely discard traditional beliefs or worship is a closed-minded bigot who simply wishes to return to the 1950s. I wasn't alive then, but I'm aware that the present difficulties have their origins in and long before the 1950s, and certainly do not wish to simply return to any particular period. On the other hand, I strongly oppose discarding all accumulated tradition and reason in favour of the trends of the last decade or so, as the current leadership of the Anglican Church seems to be advocating.

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