Comments on: Change in the church? Perish the thought! http://www.ministrymatters.ca/settingsail/change-in-the-church-perish-the-thought/ Inspiration for Canadian Anglican leaders Wed, 25 Jan 2012 19:09:54 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Neale Adams http://www.ministrymatters.ca/settingsail/change-in-the-church-perish-the-thought/comment-page-1/#comment-328 Neale Adams Wed, 02 Jun 2010 01:42:16 +0000 http://www.ministrymatters.ca/?p=1053#comment-328 Who is not whose! Argggghhh! Who is not whose! Argggghhh!

]]> By: Rev'd Gael Matheson http://www.ministrymatters.ca/settingsail/change-in-the-church-perish-the-thought/comment-page-1/#comment-307 Rev'd Gael Matheson Tue, 25 May 2010 15:32:38 +0000 http://www.ministrymatters.ca/?p=1053#comment-307 "How we interpret Scripture in light of our core traditions": is not the Reformed hermeneutic just the inverse? "How we interpret Scripture in light of our core traditions":
is not the Reformed hermeneutic just the inverse?

]]> By: Ted Brydges http://www.ministrymatters.ca/settingsail/change-in-the-church-perish-the-thought/comment-page-1/#comment-297 Ted Brydges Wed, 12 May 2010 22:38:46 +0000 http://www.ministrymatters.ca/?p=1053#comment-297 And to Roger--Amen. And to Roger–Amen.

]]> By: Dale Sparkes http://www.ministrymatters.ca/settingsail/change-in-the-church-perish-the-thought/comment-page-1/#comment-293 Dale Sparkes Wed, 12 May 2010 01:06:21 +0000 http://www.ministrymatters.ca/?p=1053#comment-293 I am not aware of any area of the world where there are not both majority and minority positions on the subject of change. One should always be careful when painting with a big brush. Why did the Babylonian Jewish remnant set the course for Second Temple revival and not the Egyptian or Jerusalem remnant? Why did the Essenes and Sadducees reject the position of the Pharisees and then disappear from history? Should Jesus have waited for all the factions of Judaism to be on side, in agreement, before undertaking his ministry? Why did Judaism reject the early Christian sect? Some have ears to hear and eyes to see, but only history tells who has survived. Culture (education), comfort (prejudice), and power (politics) probably have more to do with the issue than theology and salvation, both of which have multiple choices of theories. Justice is the reason for change. I am not aware of any area of the world where there are not both majority and minority positions on the subject of change. One should always be careful when painting with a big brush.
Why did the Babylonian Jewish remnant set the course for Second Temple revival and not the Egyptian or Jerusalem remnant? Why did the Essenes and Sadducees reject the position of the Pharisees and then disappear from history? Should Jesus have waited for all the factions of Judaism to be on side, in agreement, before undertaking his ministry? Why did Judaism reject the early Christian sect? Some have ears to hear and eyes to see, but only history tells who has survived.
Culture (education), comfort (prejudice), and power (politics) probably have more to do with the issue than theology and salvation, both of which have multiple choices of theories. Justice is the reason for change.

]]> By: Ted Brydges http://www.ministrymatters.ca/settingsail/change-in-the-church-perish-the-thought/comment-page-1/#comment-292 Ted Brydges Tue, 11 May 2010 21:03:03 +0000 http://www.ministrymatters.ca/?p=1053#comment-292 I can most certainly back Eleanor's comments on "Living the Question". It has been part of our parish education. Wonderful stuff. I can most certainly back Eleanor's comments on "Living the Question". It has been part of our parish education. Wonderful stuff.

]]> By: Ted Brydges http://www.ministrymatters.ca/settingsail/change-in-the-church-perish-the-thought/comment-page-1/#comment-291 Ted Brydges Tue, 11 May 2010 21:01:56 +0000 http://www.ministrymatters.ca/?p=1053#comment-291 How educated are some of these folks in the rest of the globe? What is the present state of their own knowledge of modern understandings as a result of scholarly research? Do these folks still believe in demons roaming the earth? Do these people have an understanding of modern science and especially modern medicine? Are some of these people still living in the medieval stage? Knowing what I do know about many of these people many still do not understand the modern or as it is now called the post modern period. I've alluded to this before. They have not been brought along as new experiences and understandings and perceptions come about. They missed the little steps and now they are being asked to take the almost impossible giant leap into what they do not know and do not understand. This is not because of any inherent lack of understanding but a direct result of a lack of education. These folks are every bit as intelligent as we are. Poor living conditions and poor political environments have prevented advancement. Consider it is only recently that South Africa has finally accepted that AIDS is caused by a virus. How educated are some of these folks in the rest of the globe? What is the present state of their own knowledge of modern understandings as a result of scholarly research? Do these folks still believe in demons roaming the earth? Do these people have an understanding of modern science and especially modern medicine? Are some of these people still living in the medieval stage? Knowing what I do know about many of these people many still do not understand the modern or as it is now called the post modern period. I've alluded to this before. They have not been brought along as new experiences and understandings and perceptions come about.

They missed the little steps and now they are being asked to take the almost impossible giant leap into what they do not know and do not understand. This is not because of any inherent lack of understanding but a direct result of a lack of education. These folks are every bit as intelligent as we are. Poor living conditions and poor political environments have prevented advancement. Consider it is only recently that South Africa has finally accepted that AIDS is caused by a virus.

]]> By: Elizabeth Brain http://www.ministrymatters.ca/settingsail/change-in-the-church-perish-the-thought/comment-page-1/#comment-290 Elizabeth Brain Tue, 11 May 2010 17:01:53 +0000 http://www.ministrymatters.ca/?p=1053#comment-290 To bear witness to our more outwardly directed ministry I hope that we might place greater emphasis on the revival of the permanent or vocational diaconate, and thus to enliven the diaconal ministry of us all. The diaconate represents and calls us to ministry in the world outside the sanctuary. It is in fact the oldest of the orders of ministry described in the New Testament. I would hope that every congregation would come to understand the true meaning of the Diaconate and work toward having at least one deacon in their sanctuary. It would change the focus of that sanctuary. It might just help to change the focus of all our work and action. To bear witness to our more outwardly directed ministry I hope that we might place greater emphasis on the revival of the permanent or vocational diaconate, and thus to enliven the diaconal ministry of us all. The diaconate represents and calls us to ministry in the world outside the sanctuary. It is in fact the oldest of the orders of ministry described in the New Testament. I would hope that every congregation would come to understand the true meaning of the Diaconate and work toward having at least one deacon in their sanctuary. It would change the focus of that sanctuary. It might just help to change the focus of all our work and action.

]]> By: Elizabeth Brain http://www.ministrymatters.ca/settingsail/change-in-the-church-perish-the-thought/comment-page-1/#comment-289 Elizabeth Brain Tue, 11 May 2010 16:59:56 +0000 http://www.ministrymatters.ca/?p=1053#comment-289 In the more recent past we have been far too inward looking as a church. It is time we changed the question, from “what we do in there?” to “what we do out there”. I am encouraged that 5 of the 6 Marks of Mission deal with just that – our ministry beyond the sanctuary, or service in the world to the poor, needy, or otherwise disenfranchised, to alter unjust structures as well as to sustain the earth– known as Diakonia. Only Mark of Mission number 2 has a direct bearing on what we do in the sanctuary, and hopefully the nurturing of new believers will direct us outwards also as well as building a community of faith that enables the strengthening and moving power of the Holy Spirit. To be continued In the more recent past we have been far too inward looking as a church. It is time we changed the question, from “what we do in there?” to “what we do out there”. I am encouraged that 5 of the 6 Marks of Mission deal with just that – our ministry beyond the sanctuary, or service in the world to the poor, needy, or otherwise disenfranchised, to alter unjust structures as well as to sustain the earth– known as Diakonia. Only Mark of Mission number 2 has a direct bearing on what we do in the sanctuary, and hopefully the nurturing of new believers will direct us outwards also as well as building a community of faith that enables the strengthening and moving power of the Holy Spirit.
To be continued

]]> By: Elizabeth Brain http://www.ministrymatters.ca/settingsail/change-in-the-church-perish-the-thought/comment-page-1/#comment-288 Elizabeth Brain Tue, 11 May 2010 16:58:18 +0000 http://www.ministrymatters.ca/?p=1053#comment-288 Thank you Catherine for your invitation to change. I believe as you suggest that our church has continually grown and changed in response to new inspiration, thinking and ideas (often considered “heretical” at the time). Tradition is not so much like an anchor chaining us to archaic orthodoxies and praxis, but like a tree growing and flowering through nourishment from the deep roots of divinity. In changing, we might very well need to grow out of the “Sanctuary of the Sanctuary”. (to be contd) Thank you Catherine for your invitation to change.
I believe as you suggest that our church has continually grown and changed in response to new inspiration, thinking and ideas (often considered “heretical” at the time). Tradition is not so much like an anchor chaining us to archaic orthodoxies and praxis, but like a tree growing and flowering through nourishment from the deep roots of divinity. In changing, we might very well need to grow out of the “Sanctuary of the Sanctuary”. (to be contd)

]]> By: Rod http://www.ministrymatters.ca/settingsail/change-in-the-church-perish-the-thought/comment-page-1/#comment-287 Rod Tue, 11 May 2010 13:47:13 +0000 http://www.ministrymatters.ca/?p=1053#comment-287 The article asks good questions about the aversion to change in the church. However, the article leaves the impression that resistance to change is an general reflex response at large in the church. But it is church policy makers and those charged with implementing policy are often responsible for the change paralysis that permeates the church. For example, nearly thirty-five years ago we approved ordaining women priests and then eventually bishops. Yet here in this diocese there are several parishes, where a woman bishop, and when they have been in place women archdeacons, are "not allowed" to celebrate the Eucharist. (They can apparently conduct morning and evening prayer and preach). Allowing this to continue negates the status of women everywhere, not just in the few parishes involved. This state affairs is really one of the church's own making. If GS 2010 is going to engage change, let's hope they have the courage of their convictions after-wards. The article asks good questions about the aversion to change in the church. However, the article leaves the impression that resistance to change is an general reflex response at large in the church. But it is church policy makers and those charged with implementing policy are often responsible for the change paralysis that permeates the church. For example, nearly thirty-five years ago we approved ordaining women priests and then eventually bishops. Yet here in this diocese there are several parishes, where a woman bishop, and when they have been in place women archdeacons, are "not allowed" to celebrate the Eucharist. (They can apparently conduct morning and evening prayer and preach). Allowing this to continue negates the status of women everywhere, not just in the few parishes involved. This state affairs is really one of the church's own making. If GS 2010 is going to engage change, let's hope they have the courage of their convictions after-wards.

]]>